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bitmasher's picture
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Concealed Carry in the Classroom (CCC?)

Recently I was talking with a couple of local highschool teachers and their petition to start packing in the classroom. We discussed the issues involved and it was rather thought provoking.

Eventually I came to the conclusion that I would support teachers packing while teaching as well as other non-teaching staff, such as adminstration and guidance counselors. Assuming of course that each individual wishing to carry met the requirements for carrying in their respective state.

My biggest reason for supporting packing-teachers is that I believe our schools are totally porous to guns. Time and again we have seen that despite precautions, sick folks with bad intentions have no trouble getting weapons into schools. If guns so easily get into schools the ideal of a "gun free zone" is hopeless. Given this reality I would like people that I generally have a high respect for (ie teachers) to be armed, thus being able to possibly defend themselves and our kids if necessary.

Teachers packing is a hot button issue. However something needs to be done to better defend our schools, kids, and teachers. The status quo is unacceptable and blaming guns is equally unacceptable.

Incidentally some readers may find this "The View" video interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhXqexuRkLk

Rosie using the typical gun grabbing punchlines. Elisabeth Hasselbeck briefly mentions the possibility of packing teachers, but its gets run over in the course of conversation. A worthwhile watch.... Hasselbeck deserves a medal in my opinion for her defense of gun rights and trying to steer the debate to the rational.

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Concealed Carry in the Classroom (CCC?)

It's about time people started to see the light on this. How many school shootings could have been prevented by an armed teacher? One could argue that all the "no gun" zones around schools just advertise that if you're bent on mass murder you have a lot of people packed together and a guarantee of no armed resistance.

Unfortunately, most teachers and the NEA are about as left wing as they come, and I can't see this getting any traction -- especially since it would require repeal of federal law prohibiting guns on school property. States might pull it off if left to their own devices, but not at the federal level. Look what happened during debate over arming airline pilots -- even a volunteer arming program. No way we'll see it for teachers -- the educational world is probably the most liberal institution in the nation.

You'd think it'd be possible to tap into teachers' desire to protect their students, but IMO those who would actually take a stand are small fish in a sea of liberal pacifism and appeasement.

CVC
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Concealed Carry in the Classroom (CCC?)

If the state allows CCH, the teachers receive the CCH permit and the teachers take a special course designed to deal with carrying a gun in the classroom then I would be for it.

I think a special course, dealing with practical situations, shooting, ammo discussion, weapon selection and storage, and other relevant subjects is necessary.

One reason for the course is that I am sure that some of the teachers will be carrying a gun for the first time and there is a lot more to personal safety and the safety of the children than just carrying a gun.

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Concealed Carry in the Classroom (CCC?)

School shooting, and not just by students, is an epedemic in my opinion.

But arming teachers, I got some serious reservations about this:

(1) There will be a loaded firearm in every classroom even if the teacher has it, much the same as every call the police goes on, there is a loaded firearm involved, the police have it.
(2) And we're not talking about a five year old students. we're talking about physically fit teenagers, methed up, suicidal or whatever fighting over a handgun with a teacher. The majority of the time the teacher will lose possession.
I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think arming teachers is the right thing
Isn't that the main reason prison guards on the inside are not armed ?????

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I'm not so sure that arming teachers is such a good idea myself. Actually most schools are a safe place to be but we read about every shooting and it seems like it's happening all the time. How many schools do we have in this country? What percentage actually have had the problem? Hell its safer to be in school than to walk to the store after dark! How comforting for the students to see the teachers all carrying, don't think thats a good idea.

But I also agree something should be done especially in larger schools. Probally a few teachers could be really well trained in the use of firearms and have them avaliable to them only. Then a panic button with a silent alarm in each class. I think having firearms accessable is ok but I'd hate to think some teacher would get second thoughts at the wrong time. That could be a disaster that puts one more gun in the bad guys hands. Lethal force is a very serious thing. Maybe we should all go to the local school and just sit and talk with the teachers for awhile. Get a feel for who they are and then ask yourself, "do I really want this guy/woman carring around a loaded gun in school?"

I think another thing we could do is have SWAT teams act much quicker and much more agressively. Seems we do to much talking with the bad guy and to much waiting to see what will happen. People that go into schools and do that, reguardless of age, have some severe mental problems and need taken out ASAP. Maybe a bit of a cold attitude but why risk even one inocent kid or teachers life? Trying to convince them to give it up never seems to work, kids and teachers always seem to die.

Hell the kids that did it at Columbine ended up shooting themselves anyway didn't they? I think they weren't sure about suspected bombs but had the bombs been there, what would have changed? The police should have forced the issue. Perhaps then at least one life would have been saved rather than one more taken. If I remember right it was the saftey of the officers that concerned them. Well right or wrong, they are paid for that risk. Sometimes life just sucks.

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Concealed Carry in the Classroom (CCC?)

The problem is that most security measures are built around the assumption that the perpetrator wants to escape or at least survive. What we're talking about here are people who want to commit suicide in a big way, and school shootings are an avenue to make a final statement.

To that end, gun-free zones are a joke. These people intend to die, and take as many people out with them as they can. The only thing that will mitigate the damage will be rapid, ignominious death. The only way to accomplish that will be an on scene response, and giving teachers the OPTION would be the only cost effective way for smaller schools to make it happen.

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Concealed Carry in the Classroom (CCC?)
Hammer1 wrote:
The majority of the time the teacher will lose possession.

What makes you think so? Do the police lose possession the majority of the time when they respond to a call? No. It does happen, but very infrequently. I would suspect that it would happen very infrequently with teachers, also.

The comparison to prisons is not really valid, because in a prison setting the guards have to pretty much assume that all of the prisoners are against them. That is, if an incident starts, they have to assume that almost all of the prisoners will help those who are assaulting the guards. They cannot count on help from the other prisoners, and they cannot even count on the other prisoners choosing to not become involved. The same is simply not going to be true--not even close!--in any kind of schoolroom shooting.

That said, I still don't see arming the teachers as being a very useful "solution." The whackos will just walk in and shoot the teacher first, and then proceed from there. As expatriate said, these incidents are not any kind of "normal" assault, since the assailant almost always walks into it WANTING to end up dead.

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Concealed Carry in the Classroom (CCC?)
Don Fischer wrote:
I think another thing we could do is have SWAT teams act much quicker and much more agressively.

I think this is a lesson we learned from Columbine and, at least in the Amish school case, this is what they did. The problem at Columbine was that they hadn't seen this particular type of assault before and they thought they needed to handle it like a "normal" hostage situation. Had that been what it was, their approach probably would have worked very well. But it wasn't, and so it didn't. Lesson learned.

Don Fischer wrote:
Hell the kids that did it at Columbine ended up shooting themselves anyway didn't they?

Yes, they did.

Don Fischer wrote:
I think they weren't sure about suspected bombs but had the bombs been there, what would have changed?

Harris and Klebold brought several bombs with them to Columbine. They tried to set off at least one of the bombs, had some trouble with the firing mechanism, and quickly gave up on the bombs and proceeded to the shooting spree. Actually, in many ways, we are probably lucky that they were gun-obsessed and therefore didn't spend the time to figure out the firing mechanism on their bombs. If they had the dead would probably number in the hundreds instead of just a fraction of that.

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denverson query:
Hammer1 wrote:
The majority of the time the teacher will lose possession.

What makes you think so? Do the police lose possession the majority of the time when they respond to a call? No. It does happen, but very infrequently. I would suspect that it would happen very infrequently with teachers, also.

My comments were based solely on this: 27.5 years as a police officer Now here's a little secret. Every year we were required to requalify , One phase was Firearm Retention. You had to keep control of your firearm while someone else tried to take it. This got god damn mean and dirty. You always got paired off with someone that you really didn't like and the fondness was usually mutual

Guess what: The strongest,meanest dirtiest one always. yes always ended up with the weapon
Thats the long and short of it. And to say that police officers don't lose control or possession of their firearms is wrong. Those that do make the Honor Roll.

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I might add to what Hammer said, police officers are trained, or supposed to be, in these things. Every so often we hear of some real bad stuff these guys get involved in and loose! Teachers are trained to teach, making a life and death decission for them would be a hobby at best. Some may well be very good with firearms but I think they would be the exception to the rule.

Have you ever looked at another human being and been in a position where YOU had to decide to take his life? Thats the decission we'd be asking them to do; they are trained to teach.

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Concealed Carry in the Classroom (CCC?)

Yes they are trained to teach, yet they are finding themselves in the line of fire. That calls for self defense and those that are willing and able to take the initiative should be allowed to pack.

To even be allowed a permit you have to go through more extensive checks than to obtain a weapon (a federal 4473), plus at least in Colorado training.

A teacher who has a permit going "crazy" is irrelevant, because said crazy-packing-teacher could under the current system get a gun into the school anyway without the permit. Furthermore any latent-crazy-teacher probably would not go through the hassle of getting a permit anyway, again because getting in a gun to commit a crime would be a non-issue, with or without the permit.

I'm not wanting to arm all teachers, only advocating that those that are willing and responsible enough to carry (and take the required training) should be allowed. Those that are willing to go through the training are the most likely to be able to mentally prepare for a confrontation that may occur.

I do believe that these individuals being in the classroom could make the difference in saving a few innocent lives. Even the knowledge that some teachers are armed could be a deterrent to some would be perps.

By the way at Columbine teacher Dave Sanders took the time to save kids and while I'm not certain of the chronology, it appears that he most likely had the opportunity to confront the perps. Hind sight is always perfect; however had he been armed, capable, and willing to use deadly force it is concievable that he could have stopped or delayed the killers and saved his own life.

http://www.thedailycamera.com/shooting/sanders.html

Also I find the arguement that this doesn't happen in "many schools" to be irrevelant. While any given school is at low risk at any given time, no school is at no risk at any time. The Amish school shooting wipes away any hope that some schools are at no risk.

Finally while I really wish it could be left up to SWAT teams, I don't think the response time will ever be what it needs to be unless the teams are stationed in every school. For instance Colorado's Jeffco school district is prehaps the most prepared in the nation given that Columbine happened in its district. However the rapid response and good work of the team was still not enough to stop the loss of live in Bailey.

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