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Location: NE Minnesota
Joined: 01/14/2004
Posts: 144
Colorado Wolf Working Group Recommendations

My point was that just because wolves cause problems doesn't mean we should exclude them from wild areas. And if you tell me that there aren't any wild areas left in Colorado then you must not get out much. Of course wolves will kill dogs. Of course wolves will kill livestock. That is what they do. But to deny them their place just because we have so severely altered some parts of the landscape doesn't make sense. They will get along just fine in the mountains and forests. If we LET them. That doesn't mean we can't get rid of wolves that become habituated to humans. The problem is we are so busy fighting over where they should be that they are going to make the decision for us. They will disperse to any open territory, and if we don't have a plan to manage them, then we have chaos. So the fact that Colorado is being proactive should be applauded.

As for the anti-hunters perpetuating reintroductions, that is a myth. It is simply the animal rights folks who first had the idea. Since then it has become more mainstrem. Any hunter who thinks that predators will wipeout game populations on a wide scale is just plain wrong. Besides if you look at the stats-hunting in decline/some game populations on the rise- maybe we do need the predators help. Or maybe we have had it good for so long (game population wise) that we don't want to have to work to shoot our game. And before people fly off the handle- saying "I bust my ass for my animal" , or "I rarely see the animals I used to". Remember that populations are fickle and not all game is on the rise everywhere, but many places are being overrun by animals(due to many reasons, most having nothing to do with hunting).

Besides why should people have to go to Alaska to see a wolf in the wild? Don't you think our children deserve to know that there is a wild place nearby? And many of us adults would do worse than to remember that we are NOT the top of the food chain! I for one love the fact that when I go into the woods around my home (NE Minnesota) at any moment I could encounter an animal that may see me as prey. Many people here may disagree, that is their right. I make concessions, like keeping my dog in sight when I go out, or realising that if my dog takes off she may be wolf bait.

It's tough, some people feel they shouldn't be denied the right to have wolves in the forests near their homes, and others feel they shouldn't be forced to live with them. There has to be a middle ground. And saying they only belong in Alaska is not middle ground.

As for the money, it shouldn't be any different than for any other game animal, once it gets delisted, which is the biggest problem facing wolf management, not the population itself, you sell licenses, and that money goes to wolf management. With the prices people pay to shoot some of the game in this country(sheep, goats, trophy Elk) I would think a wolf tag could bring a pretty good sum. Granted small populations may not support a big program, but then again small populations shouldn't be much of a problem either. This may not be the complete answer but it is a pretty good start.

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Location: NE Minnesota
Joined: 01/14/2004
Posts: 144
Colorado Wolf Working Group Recommendations

Just curious Petzl88- I notice you have posted on the mountain lion area. Do you harbor the same feelings for cats? It seeems their population has been on the rise recently. Yet you seem to be fine with having them around. Is it because as of now you can still hunt them? Like I said, just curious.

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Location: Colorado
Joined: 10/14/2003
Posts: 14
Colorado Wolf Working Group Recommendations

Stillhunter,

As far as saying that I must not get out much, that is a completely wrong assumption. I guide for over half of the year.

I think that a middle ground would be to allow anyone to kill or injure a wolf if it is attacking any of their animals.

You live in Minnesota, not Colorado. Many people who want wolves in Colorado live in the city and never get outside. If they lived in the country and realized that wolves will probably come into their backyard, they would be singing a different tune.

By law a rancher is permitted to kill a wolf if it is attacking his livestock, but a person is not allowed to kill a wolf if it is attacking his dog. Well, I guess I'm going to be an outlaw.

The bottom line is that they will come, they will be here, and there will be many problems. When wolves come into MY backyard and eat MY dog, you damn well better believe that the hammer is going to drop on my rifle and it is going to sound like the Fourth of July.

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Location: Colorado
Joined: 10/14/2003
Posts: 14
Colorado Wolf Working Group Recommendations

"Do you harbor the same feelings for cats? It seeems their population has been on the rise recently. Yet you seem to be fine with having them around. Is it because as of now you can still hunt them? Like I said, just curious."

No, I do not harbor the same feelings for lions. It seems that their population has been on the rise recently? Where did you get this idea? Just because young transient males are being pushed into new areas, including coming into towns, does not mean that their population is on the rise. I think that female quotas should be put on lion in Colorado.

I am fine with having lions and bear around because they are not wanton killers. They will not come into a pasture and kill a whole herd of sheep.

These quotes from Dub Evans sum up my thoughts:

"Never once have I known a wolf to do anything to change my bad opinion of him; and, although I would very much regret the passing of bear and lions from these Southwestern mountains, I would shed no tears whatever over the death of the last lobo. In my opinion, the lobo is the cruelest, most wanton killer of all our Southwestern predators. Bear and lions do sometimes kill wantonly, beyond the need for food. But such animals are the exceptions to the rule; whereas the opposite is true of the lobo. The lobo is a butcher, killing at every opportunity whether he is hungry or not. The wolf kills aimlessly, needlessly, and heartlessly without contributing anything at all."

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Location: NE Minnesota
Joined: 01/14/2004
Posts: 144
Colorado Wolf Working Group Recommendations
Quote:
"Never once have I known a wolf to do anything to change my bad opinion of him; and, although I would very much regret the passing of bear and lions from these Southwestern mountains, I would shed no tears whatever over the death of the last lobo. In my opinion, the lobo is the cruelest, most wanton killer of all our Southwestern predators. Bear and lions do sometimes kill wantonly, beyond the need for food. But such animals are the exceptions to the rule; whereas the opposite is true of the lobo. The lobo is a butcher, killing at every opportunity whether he is hungry or not. The wolf kills aimlessly, needlessly, and heartlessly without contributing anything at all."

Just another example of humans thinking they know it all and not seeing the real value in nature. If they contribute nothing why were they here in the first place?!

As for cats, of course the jury is still out on whether the population is truly increasing, we just have more interaction with them, or they are getting bolder. But one thing is for sure, they have killed more people in recent years than wolves have. I don't know about you but I find that much more distressing than wolves killing elk, deer or livestock "aimlessly, needlessly, and heartlessly". In my opinion, it just shows the sheer hatred and irrational feelings that are still present in our society toward wolves.

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Location: Colorado
Joined: 02/27/2003
Posts: 394
Colorado Wolf Working Group Recommendations

"It sure is. You better believe it Mister."

I do NOT believe it, because there are a lot of people who haven't got an anti-hunting bone in their bodies, who nonetheless believe there is a place in the ecosystem for wolves. I am one of them

"Now let's think logically here, not emotionally."

Good advice. I have been thinking logically from the start. Have you? I already said that wolf populations will require management. If it weren't for all the people here, if the environment were just as it was 10,000 years ago, that would not be the case. If someone is reacting emotionally here, it's certainly not me.

You don't like wolves. Fine. You've made up your mind and you're not interested in any possibility of compromise. Fine. I'm very happy that the sort of attitude that you exhibit has lost out in modern America. I'm very happy that there are people looking into ways to re-introduce wolves into our wild places, and I'm ESPECIALLY happy that they are giving serious consideration to how wolf populations will affect other wild species and the hunting opportunities that exist.

bitmasher's picture
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Location: Colorado
Joined: 02/27/2002
Posts: 2973
Colorado Wolf Working Group Recommendations

Its not much of a suprise that the group was able to reach "unanimous" agreement on the management points. Anybody read them? They are kind of long on scope, short on details, w/ a few exceptions.

Anybody have any idea what this recommendation means? "Producers should be rewarded for non-lethal wolf control". I suspect the only control a producer would be interested in is the lethal kind...

Now the DOW seems explicit on who isn't going to pay for wolves and wolf damage: Sportmen. An interesting point, which every one on the panel seems to agree. Where are they going to fund "roaming wolf" management then? Seems to me they should just get to the chase and define a wolf policy for the state regardless of whether they are introduced directly into the state or border roamers. Then explictly define where the cost is going to be placed.

Wolves are a favorite point of anti-hunters, but your not necessarily an anti-hunter if you support wolf introductions.

Bears and cougars make sport with sheep herds. I've seen the damage first hand.

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Location: Summit County, Colorado
Joined: 03/17/2005
Posts: 18
wolves

Wolves are a natural part of the ecosystem, and predation by wolves helps keep deer and elk herds healthy - it's that simple. Just because we value our hunting experience doesn't mean we have to be anti-wolf. Sure, we may lose a few hunting tags the first few years after a re-introduction of wolves, but the ecosystem has a way of balancing itself out. Besides, we might want to consider the health of the ecosystem first, before our own little needs, so that our sons and grandsons have a place to hunt just as we do.

It's just a damn shame that the original settlers of Colorado were so ignorant about predators (grizzlies, wolves) and killed them all off. eye roll

Quicksilver's picture
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Location: Colorado
Joined: 05/03/2003
Posts: 239
Colorado Wolf Working Group Recommendations
Summit Hunter wrote:
It's just a damn shame that the original settlers of Colorado were so ignorant about predators (grizzlies, wolves) and killed them all off.

Damn those ignorant settlers for come'n to Colorado and making a living off the land by trapping and raising livestock. Our elders should have been smarter than that, I mean really, they should have thought about feeding the bears and wolves before feeding themselves... lol

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Location: Colorado
Joined: 02/27/2003
Posts: 394
Colorado Wolf Working Group Recommendations
Quicksilver wrote:
they should have thought about feeding the bears and wolves before feeding themselves... lol

No, but it's too bad that people back then didn't realize the delicate balance of nature and work with it instead of just deciding to wipe out every species that they didn't, personally, have a use for.

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