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Location: Florida,USA
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Colorado Update

While I have no comment on Allard or cockfighting as I am not from that part of the country and cockfighting is and has been illegal in Florida, which is where I park my truck in the garage, I must comment on Waco.

I agree 100% that those folks didn't deserve what they got and that the Government blew it on this one. However(and there's always an however) you just cant shoot Police officers serving a legally obtained search warrant even if they kick in the door without knocking. Wheather or not there were Illegal Firearms inside the compound became a moot point when the Davidians fired the first shot at the Officers. That is not how things are done in my country. The Davidians blew it when they started shooting giving the Government the chance to blow it later on.

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Joined: 11/02/2002
Posts: 130
Colorado Update

Thank you for your comments Mr Tapia. I made the comment that cockfighting was not and still isn't legal in Florida. But the harassement of the citizens that live in Florida just because they own game fowl should not be against the law because the laws were passed just so the HSUS can go out with law enforcement and harass innocent people and make felons of them.

There also seems to be some disagreement as to wheather the warrent was legal as it was obtained under false pretenses. And there is a question as to who shot first. The government said that there could be no fire coming from the helicopter as it wasn't armed, then when cross examined under oath they said well we didn't say the men aboard the helicopter wasn't armed. Also the 9-1-1 tapes that were made confirms that they were being fired upon as David Coresh was talking on the phone.

In Natzi Germany the Gestapo came in the middle of the night with warrents also!

I would suggest you watch the documentary.

I would like to thank you for your input and look forward to more comments from you.
Thanks Buck

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Location: Colorado
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Colorado Update

I admit that Allard is crafty (I said it earlier), but if the interstate trade in gamecocks was such a huge political issue with strong opposition, the emergency farm bill would have been killed. This is precisely what happened with the firearm manufactures liability bill. It was cruising to passage, until the assault weapons extension got tacked on, which many opposed (read those with NRA funding) and it was killed. I suspect the liability bill will be reintroduced in the next session.

Now on the second point, how can I be wrong? I said I hadn't watched the "engagement show" and simply noted that some believe it to be inaccurate. I gave no opinion on its authenticity or accuracy. I simply don't know; however I gave a link to the Frontline site on waco documentary. I've noted my respect for frontline in the past on this board. Read the timeline on the site (available for free) its detailed and backs up the arguement that nobody really knows who started shooting with the search warrant was served....

Moving on....

I can't believe that your (Buck) trying to argue that it is wrong for the birds to be confiscated in the Florida case you link to above. They were breaking the law, specifically raising the game cocks for illegal fights or for illegal export (thanks to allard's bill). This isn't harassment any more than getting a ticket for speeding. If they don't want to get arrested, don't raise chickens for fighting, period, the law is pretty clear.

If you really care so much for these cocks and this chicken holocaust confused? why don't you encourage all these illegal outfits to get a new vocation. Seems that you would save far more birds that way than try to convince 48 states that they should repeal their anti-cockfighting stance.

Finally I really don't understand why you rant and rant about CO senators and Federal policy. The fact is TX bans cockfighting just like any other state and being a more conservative state, I would think you would have far more luck trying to get back the right to chicken fights on your home turf.

Furthermore, I would also like to point out that you agree with the animal rights movement yourself, even at a limited level. How can that be? You've said that you are against, do not agree with, or do not engage in dog fighting because dogs are "like us". By not allowing dog fights you are granting a limited level of rights to dogs (i.e. dogs have the right to not be used for fun and profit dog-on-dog fights). So don't call people animal rights activist just because they don't support cockfighting, because you have demonstrated your own willingness to grant some animals rights. Indeed, because of your position on dog fights, you could be considered an AR activists, by those that believe that no animal (other than humans) should have any rights at all.

[ This Message was edited by: bitmasher on 2004-03-05 23:35 ]

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Joined: 11/02/2002
Posts: 130
Colorado Update

First of all the gun bill and the farm bill was totally different. Both the democrats and republicans wanted to make political hay of the Farm Bill. They had to take something positive back home for the people in an election year so they could yuck it up and stay close to the money in Washington. You call it crafty I call it selling out. Also Mr Allred didn't get what he wanted on the interstate transport of the birds even with the farm bill. Also the Feds have no right to be messing with interstate commerce. If 47 states outlawyed cigarettes tomorrow, would it be right for the Feds to stop them from coming out of Winston Salem North Carolina, (devastating the economy) and crossing state lines to get to the legal states?

I never said what you said about the Dog Fighting either. I said I myself would never attend one and I told expatriate that if he had a dog and wanted to fight it go ahead. You need to keep your eye on the ball.

Go back to the links I put up. There was no cockfighting going on its all alleged. There was no interstate commerce going on unless the undercover cops sold the two roosters they bought for $600.00 to the police department in a different state.

I am glad that you do agree that no one knows who shot first in Waco except the ones that actually did it. Would you also agree that the sniper that shot Randy Weavers wife and kid should not have been at Waco either, how about the US military?

In my state of Texas they are not coming in the early morning dawn and arresting you for owning chickens. The only thing that happened here was that the Federal Government didn't allow the local law enforcement to handle the arrest of David Koresh when he was at the coffee shop or at the sheriffs office.

I believe in the bible where it says that men have dominion over all animals. You calling me a animal rights person is akin to me calling you gay for supporting gay marriages. Won't work cause I would never call you something unless I knew for sure.

Thanks Buck

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Location: St. Paul, MN
Joined: 02/07/2004
Posts: 90
Colorado Update

"Also the Feds have no right to be messing with interstate commerce. If 47 states outlawyed cigarettes tomorrow, would it be right for the Feds to stop them from coming out of Winston Salem North Carolina, (devastating the economy) and crossing state lines to get to the legal states? "

A: YES!

C'mon Buck, you know better. It is enumerated right in the Consituition!
" To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;" Article 1 Section 8

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Joined: 11/02/2002
Posts: 130
Colorado Update

Maybe I should rephrase it then, Do you think its right as a american citizen? What about individual states bills of rights. There are some states that have stronger language than the federal bill of rights. I also knew where you were going with it cause I have the constitution here to. I ask you this would the tobacco farmers have to be compensated under the constitution? What do you think of this notion of Texas being a Republic? Bye Buck

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Location: St. Paul, MN
Joined: 02/07/2004
Posts: 90
Colorado Update

I personally believe based on my interpretation of the Consitution that hypothetically if cigarettes were banned in most states that the people growing tobacco would be compensated for all crops up to the date the law takes effect. After that date, all crop grown can be legally seized and destoyed. We had this as a hypothetical Case in one of my consitutional law classes. As for Texas being a separate republic, that issue was put to rest in 1865. One nation, indivisible..... It is perfectly fine with a state's consitution to afford more rights to its citizens, unless it is contrary to federal law.
Thanks, MN

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Location: Arizona
Joined: 10/26/2002
Posts: 3207
Colorado Update

I believe the state's rights issue was solved 140 years ago on a table in Appomatox, Virginia. As far as the Republic of Texas goes, that one was solved nearly 160 years ago. If I recall correctly, Texas asked for annexation several times between 1837 and 1844 and was rejected by the federal government each time. Even Sam Houston pushed for it between 1841-44.

I'm a strong proponent of the rights of individual states, and the constitution was written to limit the powers of Federal government. I'll also admit that the interstate commerce clause gets abused way too much. An example would be the threat of withholding highway funds to enact speed limits, seatbelt laws, and drinking age laws.

However, I still feel there's times when the government needs to step in. The full faith and credit clause can present situations where one state is forced to honor something enacted in another state. So in cases like that I think there's valid reasons to step in in order to keep particular states from enacting we all have to live with, yet didn't get a chance to vote on.

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Joined: 11/02/2002
Posts: 130
Colorado Update

Amen brother. Do you think Mr Allred's Bill used the interstate commerce clause to further the animal rights agenda. I also thought prostitution was illegal in most states except Nevada. Ever hear of the CHICKEN RANCH, seems as though the taxpayers funded that operation too through a SBA loan. They were never raided in the pre dawn hours. Also congress never had a crossing state lines policy against it even though it is illegal in 49 states. QUE PASSA, Whats up with this?

Someone prostituted defined as (now,chiefly,devoted to base purposes or ends; corrupt). Can we now say that the politicians are prostituting themselves to special interests and that Mr Wanyne Pacelles of the HSUS is a pimp for them?

Also there seems to be some discussions as to the status of Texas in the union here lately. At least in these parts anyways.

Thanks Buck

[ This Message was edited by: bucknaked40 on 2004-03-06 16:11 ]

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Colorado Update

Mn Hunter then you agree that the people that had the gamecocks in the state of Florida should be compensated for their property. What about the people who were raising gamefowl for a living prior to Mr Allreds law that in effect deprived them of their livlyhood. Should they be compensated? What about the people of Oklahoma that had gamefowl businesses and had Hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in their businesses, Should they be compensated? One nation, indivisable------ Why didn't you say under God is it because it devisive? Its all smoke and mirrors in Washington. The same guys that are passing laws against me are criminals theirself, ever hear of the House Banking Scandal. Did any of these guys ever do time? Thanks Buck anxiously awaiting your answer. By the way just read Patrick Henry address to the Ratifying Convention of Virginia. It should be mandatory reading in Colo. schools and the halls of Congress. Guess where I read it? A gamefowl magazine, who would of thunk it?

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