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WesternHunter's picture
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Change of Pace - SCOTUS Case
pangolin wrote:
One has to accept the fact though that some people are disadvantaged by their environment when growing up and the situation of their parents and peers.

Take the example or racist bigoted hicks. One can blame them entirely or realize that more than likely their parents were also racist ignorant bigots. I do realize that just because ones mom spent her entire 9 months of pregnancy falling down drunk on whiskey is no reason to assume that one is starting out ones life on a less than sure footing, but having racists for parents, friends and acquaintances also has a negative effect. So yes and no, race by itself isn’t always a sole contributing factor for disparity of opportunity, but being the product of a long line of ignorant bigots is.

I’m just using this as one example.

While it may be the case with a great many people. I still declair that mentallity a cop-out and just an excuse. I'm not disagreeing that it occures, just saying that those who suceed have learned to move beyond that. Everyone has barrier they have to overcome, some more than others. That type of "elephant-leash" does eventually get recognized sooner or later by everyone examining themselves at some point in life. What they do with it, how they rid themselves of it, and how they let it affect their lives is up to them. Attitude and outlook play a large role in success. Mind, motivation, and determination are great things. You'd be amazed how far they can get you.

CVC
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Change of Pace - SCOTUS Case
pangolin wrote:
One has to accept the fact though that some people are disadvantaged by their environment when growing up and the situation of their parents and peers.

Take the example or racist bigoted hicks. One can blame them entirely or realize that more than likely their parents were also racist ignorant bigots. I do realize that just because ones mom spent her entire 9 months of pregnancy falling down drunk on whiskey is no reason to assume that one is starting out ones life on a less than sure footing, but having racists for parents, friends and acquaintances also has a negative effect. So yes and no, race by itself isn’t always a sole contributing factor for disparity of opportunity, but being the product of a long line of ignorant bigots is.

I’m just using this as one example.

Do you work hard to be ignorant or does it just come easy for you?

Bigotry, poverty, etc. is not a product of race - all races exhibit bigotry, subject to being poor and can be disadvantage so you post is meaningless.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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CVC wrote:
pangolin wrote:
One has to accept the fact though that some people are disadvantaged by their environment when growing up and the situation of their parents and peers.

Take the example or racist bigoted hicks. One can blame them entirely or realize that more than likely their parents were also racist ignorant bigots. I do realize that just because ones mom spent her entire 9 months of pregnancy falling down drunk on whiskey is no reason to assume that one is starting out ones life on a less than sure footing, but having racists for parents, friends and acquaintances also has a negative effect. So yes and no, race by itself isn’t always a sole contributing factor for disparity of opportunity, but being the product of a long line of ignorant bigots is.

I’m just using this as one example.

Do you work hard to be ignorant or does it just come easy for you?

Bigotry, poverty, etc. is not a product of race - all races exhibit bigotry, subject to being poor and can be disadvantage so you post is meaningless.

My mother graduated from CU in Boulder with her Masters Degree and in recent years retired from the State of CO. My father served in the US Air Force, came home worked as a Denver County Sheriffs Deputy worked his way through community college and retired from the State Hospital a few years back. They are both of Latino blood lines.

I remember my mom telling me how the school guidance counselors when she was in high school would advise the hispanic kids to service related work such as labor or housekeeping regardless of their academic level/potential. While the anglo kids were predominantly encouraged to go to college.

They both told me of numerous instances where due to their hispanic blood ethnicity they experienced racism in their lives. And, they were born in this Country. They weren't 'wetbacks'.

I grew up in a middle class environment don't even know how to speak Spanish though my parents and elders all do or did. Due to my appearance it is pretty easy to distinguish my Latino blood. I experienced racism in terms of being called a 'dirty mexican' 'greaser' 'wetback' and a few other choice words at various times in mainly my younger years.

Now, do I hold that all whites/anglos are racist bigots? Why no not at all, nor do I think it should be an excuse to not elevate my position in life. My parents obviously didn't feel this way either.

But, to act as if racism by some whites in a society where whites have historically held the power by being in positions of power is in my opinion being willfully ignorant or just plain naive.

All the times in my life where I was called derogatory names due to my Latino blood it wasn't from Blacks or Asians it was from Whites. Granted, where I grew up it's a mainly White/Hispanic population, but I did serve in the Military as well and was exposed to different areas of our country.

Things are changing no doubt and maybe that's what people are scared off. And, as for me, I've got good friends from many ethnic groups and pass judgement on character not skin color. As I am sure you all do.

expatriate's picture
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Change of Pace - SCOTUS Case

Great post, SoCo. As I said before, I don't think we have racism as it existed before. My kids' generation dates inter-racially and culture crosses racial bounds far more than it ever did before.

However, IMO I've seen new problems. For example, I've seen alarming degrees of reverse discrimination by those that subscribe to the idea that the sins of the past justify sins of the present. I'm also disappointed by people who have made an industry out of convincing people that they're oppressed.

Everyone gets dealt bad cards sometimes. The question is what to do about it -- apply yourself and create your own luck, or smoke the intellectual crack that absolves you of responsibility for your circumstances and let's you sit on your butt and blame others?

CVC
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Soco wrote

Quote:
But, to act as if racism by some whites in a society where whites have historically held the power by being in positions of power is in my opinion being willfully ignorant or just plain naive.

You said nothing here - perhaps I can deduce what you meant to say, but you said nothing.

And why quote me? Do you agree with Civetcat's ignorant post?

Do you not agree that all races are capable of discrimination and have exhibited racism?

Is there not discrimination and bigotry in Mexico? Do not some people ol Spanish descent look down on people of indiginous descent?

How about blacks - even within their own community they look down on people who are too black or too light skinned.

And, I have experienced racism from blacks in my life.

Keep in mind that yes, some whites have committed heinous crimes against people of color, but many whites have also given their lives in defense of people of color. How many whites died trying to free slaves?

I find it surprising that you support civetcat's post. Hick is a derogatory term just like wetback. Decent people don't use terms like that to describe people.

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Change of Pace - SCOTUS Case

SoCo,

We are in agreement. As to Civet I believe that we are all given a cross to bear in life. It's not the circumstances in which we are born that count but what we aspire to and work to become. The founders of this country stated all men are created equal. If you stay that way it's your own fault. Racism was once a serious problem in this country. It has now been relagated to the ignorant few who have been exposed for what they are. We need to do away with any laws which descriminate on the basis of race white, black or any color. Laws such as these simply create more problems and resentment than they solve.

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Quote:
Wow...I don't know that I've ever seen so much bigoted opinion and stereotypes crammed into one paragraph before


A bigoted opinion about bigots?

George Will has his own problems, especially a very high profile retraction his paper had to make on his behalf of late. Part of the intellectual dishonesty of his piece was that he didn’t tell us what the attorney for the plaintiff said! One would assume that if it made its way all the way up to the Supreme Court there might well have been an argument that wasn’t so easy to decide. I certainly don’t want to go looking for the transcript, but it should have been presented with the editorial.

But yes, racists and racism certainly do still exist, electing a black president broke some barriers but we still have a long way to go. We do after all call him black, because that’s what he calls himself, because that’s how society classifies him. And if he’d married a white woman his kids would still be called black, it’s that one drop of blood thing.

A common measure I use to measure equality of opportunity is I ask myself, would an African American or Hispanic fellow have as easy a time doing my job as I do? Heck no. Every day people trust me with thousands of dollars based on my word and a flimsy contract that is worded completely in my favor. Until the answer in my own mind is an unequivocal yes, affirmative action is ok by me. I have the advantage already, I’m certainly not worried about a missed opportunity.

My friends tell me tales about growing up in Colorado of the fifties and sixties it wasn’t so long ago, stories I don’t even want to repeat. Their kids who speak terrible Spanish tell me stories about the fights at school in the eighties, and my employees tell me about people yelling stuff driving down the street today. Not as bad as it used to be, but it’s there. Look how quickly people jumped on the excuse of the swine flu to vent racist hate.

So ya, too bad there was a court case over reverse discrimination, if that’s what it was. I lose much less sleep than I do the white supremacy groups that are going nuts of late. Or the entrenched racism that still exists in much of the south and lets be honest, the rest of the country too.

From a strictly political perspective, over the last two elections Hispanics have moved profoundly blue. Hispanics are a solid voting block within the Democratic party, with similar and overlapping interests with African Americans and Asians. The Hispanic vote more than anything is turning the intermountain west blue, I see it having a similar affect on Texas soon. Like it or not the Republican party has been branded the party that doesn't have a place for minorities.

cowgal's picture
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SoCo you made some valid points, good post. Pangolin on the other hand, your post is a poor example - in fact it makes YOU looked bigoted and racist. Is that how you feel about the majority of us here on the forum? Just a bunch of hicks?

Discrimination can happen to anyone. It all depends on where you are and who you are. I immigrated as a child to this country and I'm white. My family spoke no English, and I can remember many people looking down their noses at us. It had nothing to do with the color of my skin, they simply thought we were stupid, since we couldn't speak English. Our family started with nothing here, but it did not deter us from working hard and getting an education. And no one helped us. In fact we immigrated at a time when an immigrant still had to prove themselves and be self sufficient, or they got sent back. Both my parents cleaned in New York City and I started school not knowing a word of English. No interpreters, no special help. It never occurred to us to ever expect a handout or sympathy. We were just grateful to have the opportunities that this country offered.

So I do strongly object to anyone getting preferential treatment due to race or gender. If a person has proven themself through tests or other methods and they come out on top, they should have that job or position. Claiming that someone should receive preferential treatment because they were disadvantaged in some way, does not cut it. Many of us have had harsh circumstances to overcome, and its not always based on the color of our skin.

expatriate's picture
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I saw a lecture by Thomas Sowell once, where he made a great point. He told of going to France, and remarked how France has changed so much -- with the influx of Algerians, Arabs, Turks, etc. And yet all of he beggars and homeless people on the streets were French.

And then he came to the US and found the same thing. It's not Hispanic or Asian immigrants sleeping under bridges and standing on street corners with "Homeless, Hungry, God Bless" signs. It's not the people who came to this country without knowing the language and with nothing but the shirts on their backs. The people begging are people who were born and raised here with every opportunity America has to offer.

Something's not right about that --that says more about people than circumstances.

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If the question of racial equality is a question you are asking yourself and you’re coming up with answers that are unacceptable, may I respectfully suggest the problem lies not with society but with your own impressions of it? Additionally if all of us here are a bunch of ignorant hicks bear in mind at least we're ignorant hicks who have learned to use spell check. neener! Expat, Cowgal, CVC, SoCo, Jtap and others are some of the most educated interesting "hicks" I have ever shared a thought with and as much as I hate to admit it so are you.

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