I think it is just the bullet (projectile) part of the cartridge so you would have to reload to take advantage of that. If you ever get reloaded 30-30 bullets make sure you get flat (round)nosed bullets and not spitzers(pointed). Tube magazines HAVE TO HAVE flat nose bullets in order to operate safely.
42 replies [Last post]
Tue, 2003-01-07 19:11#31
Tue, 2003-01-07 22:54#32
Before I go further, let me clarify nomenclature. A "bullet" is the projectile that fires out of the barrel and hits the target. A "cartridge" is the assembled round consisting of primer, case (brass), powder, and bullet. Lots of people unfamiliar with firearms often use the term "bullet" for "cartridge," and sometimes get confused.
Chester's comments on proper bullet (projectile) selection for a .30-30 using a tubular magazine are dead on. Imagine pointed-nose bullets loaded in cartridges sitting nose to tail in your tubular magazine. Now add recoil forces or a good drop and imagine what those pointy noses will do to the primers of the next cartridge in line -- the resulting detonation would ruin your day.
Any factory loads for .30-30 should take this into account, because any company that did otherwise would be open for an enormous lawsuit. What you have to watch is reloading, because a .30-30 uses the same diameter bullet as a .308, .30-06, 300 Win mag, and other .30 caliber rifles. So if you reload, it's entirely possible to buy .30 caliber spitzers and load them into your .30-30 cases. However, as I said, you'd be asking for disaster. Stick with round nose or flat nose bullets that are too fat to set off a primer.
[ This Message was edited by: expatriate on 2003-01-07 22:55 ]
Tue, 2003-01-07 23:06#33
Then why are some bullets pointed? Is it because not all guns have the cartridge's placed one after another?
[ This Message was edited by: Lever-action-lover on 2003-01-07 23:07 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Lever-action-lover on 2003-01-07 23:08 ]
Wed, 2003-01-08 01:00#34
The following gets technical, so the short version is that pointed bullets have less drag than round noses or flat noses and therefore shoot flatter (don't have as much trajectory). You want a flat-shooting round because bullet drop accelerates the farther you get down range, and the flatter the trajectory, the less likely you are to miss the kill zone if your distance estimate is off a few yards.
Now for the technical stuff. As you look at bullet types, note differences in ballistic coefficient. I don't know all the math, but it basically says how well a bullet resists drag. The higher a bullet's BC, the more aerodynamic it is. Thus, a bullet with a BC of .393 will shoot flatter and carry more energy at longer ranges than one of the same weight with a BC of .354.
I can give you a couple examples from my .308. Remington makes a 150 grain pointed soft point round that has a muzzle velocity of 2820 fps and a BC of .314. At 200 yards and no wind, this bullet will drop 11 inches (you sight in to compensate for this). They also make another round that uses a 150 grain Swift Scirocco bullet with the same muzzle velocity but with a BC of .435. That bullet will only drop 10.29 inches at 200 yards. The difference in drop grows rapidly as range increases.
As I mentioned earlier, this affects energy as well. Even though the Scirocco and the pointed soft point exit my .308's muzzle with exactly the same velocity and energy, 250 yards later the Scirocco is travelling about 180 fps faster, an inch and a half flatter, and has around 270 foot-lbs more energy to kill that deer with. All this is due to the difference between a .435 BC and a .314 BC.
Bottom line to all this is that if you could use pointed bullets in a .30-30, you'd be better off in terms of ballistics -- but there's no way to do it safely.
[ This Message was edited by: expatriate on 2003-01-08 01:17 ]
Wed, 2003-01-08 08:55#35
If you can get the "lot number" and manufacturer of the bullets you can check with the company to see if they're legit. At 200 rds for $13 I would be very suspicious - even if they check out they might burn your fingers when you pick them up if you get my drift.
--NEVER MIND...I'M A FEW POSTS BEHIND ON THIS ONE--
[ This Message was edited by: saskie on 2003-01-08 08:58 ]
Wed, 2003-01-08 13:24#36
PS to my previous post. Don't just blindly follow BC as a guide to bullet performance. You'll find that heavier bullets commonly have a higher BC than lighter ones for a given caliber and bullet type. This is due to the fact that air resistance doesn't affect a heavy bullet as much as a light one of generally the same shape. But if you increase bullet weight you'll have to drop velocity -- and velocity has a much greater effect on trajectory than BC.
The laws of physics are complex, but straightforward. The pull of gravity is universal and all objects accelerate toward the ground at the same speed. So the same mathematical equation decides the trajectory of a projectile -- whether it's a .30-30 or a 2000 lb bomb. The only thing that makes trajectories appear different is drag and velocity. If there was no air, ballistic coefficient wouldn't matter and round nose bullets would follow the same path at a given velocity that a pointed one would. Galileo said this hundreds of years ago and it was proven on the moon when astronauts dropped a hammer and a feather at the same time and they hit the ground together.
If you took away drag and simply looked at bullet drop over time, a .45-70 at 1600 feet per second would drop the same distance after 1 second as a .22-250 at 4000 fps. The difference is that the .22-250 will be a half mile farther down range when time's up. So velocity gives you a flatter trajectory by taking less time to get to the target and therefore giving the bullet less time to drop.
I apologize if your head is spinning now, but that's ballistics in a nutshell.
Wed, 2003-01-08 15:10#37
Im 13!!!!! And Im getting a head ache right now =). Wow.......I dont think ill get that and dont try and explain till im older.
Thanks for trying anyway!
Wed, 2003-01-08 15:31#38
Sorry about that. I have an engineering background and it keeps slipping out. My kids hate it, too.
I know that was a lot like drinking from the fire hose but since I don't know how much you know I figured I'd throw it all out there and let you figure out what makes sense. Please take the flood of info as a compliment that says I believe you're capable of learning the trade. As noted in other forums, we need young hunters like you.
1) Pointy bullets shoot better than round nosed or flat bullets, but you can't use 'em in your 30-30.
2) Speed is good in terms of accuracy. Lighter bullets go faster, but don't handle wind as well and don't penetrate as well.
3) As you look for loads for your 30-30, you have to make decisions: go with a lighter bullet that provides longer range and drops less, or a heavier bullet that penetrates deeper but goes slower and drops more. Making that decision depends on what you're trying to kill and what range you expect to shoot it from.
4) I agree with previous recommendations for a 150 grain bullet on deer. People can say what they want about the 30-30, but I doubt no other gun has killed as many deer. You just have to know its limitations and not try to reach for the long shots. And, as always, shot placement is critical. A well-placed shot with a 30-30 is better than a lousy one from a 300 Win Mag. Generally speaking, how you shoot is more important than what you shoot.
But I suspect your head is REALLY pounding now, so I'll get off my soap box and shut up.
[ This Message was edited by: expatriate on 2003-01-08 15:39 ]
Sat, 2003-01-18 21:11#39
Sorry, my computer broke down and I had to get it fixed so thats why I have not been answering. THAT MAKES A LOT MORE SENSE!!! Thanks for bringing you knowledge down to a level that I can under stand!
Sat, 2003-02-08 21:32#40
Because of my "Low income"(Im 13) I have been looking on the internet for people who sell 30/30 ammo cheap. I found this site, but the deal sounds almost to good to be true. Do you think there ready to first bullets or just the brass? Check it out... http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?sku=65172&mscssid=PHCRPQH...