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Location: Butte, MT
Joined: 01/02/2006
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Bailout business; Salary caps for Executives

Economic crisis brought about by the sub-prime mortgage affair. Good description of it. I think most folks would agree that this has basically been a slow motion train wreck that's been comming down the tracks since the Clinton administration, however, Bush and his people should have been able to see the writing on the wall and mitigate some of it (Oh, how he would have been HAMMERED for it though!), but they didn't. To a degree, I feel sorry for Obama who is now stuck trying to pick up the pieces from it. Having said that, I disagree with the way he's doing it. I just feel that nothing good will come of this "stimulus package", in a long term sense, which is now almost a trillion dollars. I didn't vote for Obama, but I'm still willing to give him 4 years to convince me to vote for him in 2012. So far, I'm just becoming more concerned about where our nation is heading every time I read the news. Hope my gut is wrong.

expatriate's picture
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Location: Arizona
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Here's a refresher on how government works:

The banks didn't create Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They were GSEs -- government sponsored enterprises. The enabling legislation created by Congress built it and put the rules in place. When warning signs appeared, let's look at how the two political parties responded:

Republican response:

http://wjnoblog.com/wp-content/mccainletter1.gif

Democratic response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

There's Reagan again -- the problem with facts is they're so stubborn.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
Joined: 12/18/2006
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Sage of the Sage wrote:
Economic crisis brought about by the sub-prime mortgage affair. Good description of it. I think most folks would agree that this has basically been a slow motion train wreck that's been comming down the tracks since the Clinton administration, however, Bush and his people should have been able to see the writing on the wall and mitigate some of it (Oh, how he would have been HAMMERED for it though!), but they didn't. To a degree, I feel sorry for Obama who is now stuck trying to pick up the pieces from it. Having said that, I disagree with the way he's doing it. I just feel that nothing good will come of this "stimulus package", in a long term sense, which is now almost a trillion dollars. I didn't vote for Obama, but I'm still willing to give him 4 years to convince me to vote for him in 2012. So far, I'm just becoming more concerned about where our nation is heading every time I read the news. Hope my gut is wrong.

I am watching and waiting with cautious optimism. Were in a mess and right now he's got his shot at attempting to 'fix' it. We'll see what happens.

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Location: Florida,USA
Joined: 08/21/2003
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civetcat wrote:
I don't get it. Taxpayers should pay huge bonuses for these losers after we bail out their businesses? I thought in capitalism we just let losers die a natural death. Believe me there are no caps being put on achievement, all those fraudsters did was lose a bunch of money.

"the banks failed because of subprime mortgages pushed as a social agenda by the Democrats" It's legal to grow your own up there isn't it? Why not just blame it on black people or something.

Let me do a reality check. Mortgage companies make huge loans to every and anybody who wants them, banks repackage mortgages as bonds, banks flog the bonds as investment securities, so it's the Dems. Makes sense to me.

Wow a Banker, economist and converted semi auto carbine owner all rolled into one.
I am not positive but I don't recall anyone on this forum who spoke out as being for the stimulus package, I know I am against it.
I say let the Banks fail along with the Automakers. That's how capitalism works, those that do it right stay around to reap the benefits and those that don't do it right fail and get out of the way thus creating more opportunity for others.
The Bail out has just kept housing prices artificially high which will not help those worried about their jobs in their decisions to invest in real estate.there by causing even more distress for Banks that now own property that is appraised higher than they are actually worth.
It has kept Unions involved in the Auto making business when it was already proven that they kept prices higher than non union shops which in the long run will only necessitate the need for another Bailout.

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Location: California
Joined: 09/06/2008
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I had to read twice through this as I found Civetcat actually making sense for a minute until he threw the race card into the whole economics issue. Then I knew it was really him and that aliens hadn't taken over his computer! He's right about one thing. Capitalism is a brutally Darwinian environment. It needs to be so. Just like we need to have brushfires here in California every year or so to clear out the old grass and make room for new foliage. Herds need to be culled of the weak, old and sick. Whats happening in our economy will strengthen it in the long run if we let it happen. Painful as it will be short term its a neccessary evil.

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Location: Canada
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 323
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The problems we have are because we have not done what you said:

"Herds need to be culled of the weak, old and sick."

Now do not take this as referring to the weak, old and sick in the physical sense. I am referring to the mind. With the unwashed masses, shallow, self centered thinking is the norm these days, when there is any thinking done at all.

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Makwa wrote:
The problems we have are because we have not done what you said:

"Herds need to be culled of the weak, old and sick."

Now do not take this as referring to the weak, old and sick in the physical sense. I am referring to the mind. With the unwashed masses, shallow, self centered thinking is the norm these days, when there is any thinking done at all.

Absolutely.
We are seeing the results of the late 80's and early 90's "Me" generation.
Its all about me and what is due me.
To hell with everyone else as long as I get mine.

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Joined: 07/31/2007
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Yes. There is a lot of that. A little too much.

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Joined: 07/29/2008
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The issue is one of federal government excising control over private business and banks. Our economy is in crisis, and that's the reason for all this, but this is a slipery slope to get on. It's that simple

Actually most think it's from a total lack of regulation. Bundling of mortgages and allowing banks to sell them as investments.

I don't recall anyone on this forum who spoke out as being for the stimulus package We were talking about allowing bailed out bankers to take huge bonuses for losing money. Follow the thread.

Economic crisis brought about by the sub-prime mortgage affair. Good description of it. I think most folks would agree that this has basically been a slow motion train wreck that's been comming down the tracks since the Clinton administration, however, Bush and his people should have been able to see the writing on the wall and mitigate some of it

Sub prime loans of and by themselves aren't evil. They are a great method for people such as the self employed (me) to get reasonable rates, especially if other than lack of a salary they are a great risk.

Financial regulation goes much further than sub prime loans. It includes all banks and securities markets as well as the comodities futers markets. Deregulation began in the 1980's it was the mantra of the Reaganites. Just let govmint get out of the way and capitalism do it's thing. Doesn't work like that. There are these things like fraud, and monopolies. Ever hear of the robber barons or the Great Depression.

Bush and freinds were the high water mark of both deregulation and reversing the role of all agencies. (labor department worked for it's corperate masters, environment was for poluters, banking for fraudsters, broadcasting for propagandists, IRS, heck we've even outsouced the defence of our diplomats to mercenaries) Bush was also the high water mark of breaking the bank and upending the social contract. Biggest debt, biggest income inequality, declining wages during a supposed recovery. Short term rates can't go lower, they are at 0%.

So what do are we supposed to do now? Half a million more Americans out of work every month. Tens of thousands of people losing thier homes, kids without health insurance. Do nothing? No. You spend.

Everyone knows that giving tax breaks to rich people does very little to stimulate the economy. They put the money in the bank. We tried that for 8 years and look where we are. Tax breaks to working class peole is better because they spend more of it but not enough. They use a lot to pay of credit card debt, and besides they are already working. Spending on infrastructure and public works pays a lot higher. It puts people to work, and they buy stuff and more people work, and we end up with roads and bridges and schools.

I personaly think someone who has worked his entire life and is suddenly unemployed due to this downturn is worth giving a hand up to. Food stamps I'm ok with, health care through midicare ok, unemployment extension ok, and I'll go ahead and pay taxes for it. So will this guy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/opinion/06hastings.html?partner=permal...

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
Joined: 12/18/2006
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civetcat wrote:
The issue is one of federal government excising control over private business and banks. Our economy is in crisis, and that's the reason for all this, but this is a slipery slope to get on. It's that simple

Actually most think it's from a total lack of regulation. Bundling of mortgages and allowing banks to sell them as investments.

I don't recall anyone on this forum who spoke out as being for the stimulus package We were talking about allowing bailed out bankers to take huge bonuses for losing money. Follow the thread.

Economic crisis brought about by the sub-prime mortgage affair. Good description of it. I think most folks would agree that this has basically been a slow motion train wreck that's been comming down the tracks since the Clinton administration, however, Bush and his people should have been able to see the writing on the wall and mitigate some of it

Sub prime loans of and by themselves aren't evil. They are a great method for people such as the self employed (me) to get reasonable rates, especially if other than lack of a salary they are a great risk.

Financial regulation goes much further than sub prime loans. It includes all banks and securities markets as well as the comodities futers markets. Deregulation began in the 1980's it was the mantra of the Reaganites. Just let govmint get out of the way and capitalism do it's thing. Doesn't work like that. There are these things like fraud, and monopolies. Ever hear of the robber barons or the Great Depression.

Bush and freinds were the high water mark of both deregulation and reversing the role of all agencies. (labor department worked for it's corperate masters, environment was for poluters, banking for fraudsters, broadcasting for propagandists, IRS, heck we've even outsouced the defence of our diplomats to mercenaries) Bush was also the high water mark of breaking the bank and upending the social contract. Biggest debt, biggest income inequality, declining wages during a supposed recovery. Short term rates can't go lower, they are at 0%.

So what do are we supposed to do now? Half a million more Americans out of work every month. Tens of thousands of people losing thier homes, kids without health insurance. Do nothing? No. You spend.

Everyone knows that giving tax breaks to rich people does very little to stimulate the economy. They put the money in the bank. We tried that for 8 years and look where we are. Tax breaks to working class peole is better because they spend more of it but not enough. They use a lot to pay of credit card debt, and besides they are already working. Spending on infrastructure and public works pays a lot higher. It puts people to work, and they buy stuff and more people work, and we end up with roads and bridges and schools.

I personaly think someone who has worked his entire life and is suddenly unemployed due to this downturn is worth giving a hand up to. Food stamps I'm ok with, health care through midicare ok, unemployment extension ok, and I'll go ahead and pay taxes for it. So will this guy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/opinion/06hastings.html?partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

Hey, what are you smoking trickle down economics and cutting taxes as a fix for everything from the economy to the common cold works! Haven't the last eight years shown you this???

Civet, great post. Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up

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