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JJD
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Accuracy mods

I am certainly not a National match caliber shooter.

I did decrease my group size by about half at 100 yds by replacing my A4's trigger. The one it came with was terrible at best and thats being kind.

The sighting system on many AR's is less than optimal, They were built to be used in poor light and after being made dirty. Kind of like the old MOA peep site on the M1 Garand. What type of sight system is on the AR and whats on the Winchester?

Twist rate of the barrel need to be matched with the bullet weights you are shooting. Some twist rates lend better to heavier bullets than others. This tends to be more of an issue smaller diameter bullets. Quality of ammo may play a role. If the stuff you were pushing through the AR was surplus junk, it may not group well at all. They sell that stuff by the boat load to the "spray and pray" crowd. Were you shooting the same Cal rifle and the same ammo out barrels of the same twist rate?

As in a previous reply, you can purchase off the shelf accurate AR platforms, but be prepared to pay a fair chunk of change more for it.

ndemiter's picture
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both was using hornady 70 gr

both was using hornady 70 gr v-max bullets (hornady factory loaded ammo). both rifles were scoped with a nikon buckmasters, one in 3-9x40 and a 4.5-14x42.

my friend still has his AR, so we might try to put a good trigger on it. if we can get the thing to shoot well, i may consider owning an r-15 in full camo with the nikon coyote special scope on it in full camo. i think they're sweet little guns, but i require more reliability than i saw with my bushmaster.

JJD
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bullet

Before giving up on the rifle, try shooting some 55 gr bullets through the gun. The twi

ndemiter's picture
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it was a 1 in 9 twist in

it was a 1 in 9 twist in both, which seemed to shoot the 75 grain hornady bullets better.

i also tried 55's (remington) but they were noticably worse.

JJD
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Not Good.

Sorry about the previous short reply, I was having some browser issues and hopefully that is resolved.

I am certainly no black gun armorer.

I'd take the gun to a qualified gun smith familiar with the black gun and have him take a good look at it, if the problem is not obvious to him or is very expensive to fix, sell the gun and try another black gun.  Might do that before a trigger.  I Knew regardless of what my gun would group, it would be useless to me with the original trigger.  In my case it really helped.

I had a Model 70 that I never could get to shoot even after pumping a fair number of $$ into it.  Sometimes ya just have to let go.  This does not say all model 70's are junk, I just got a bad one.  I sure you could find a few with the same experience with all other mass produced firearms.

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ARs

JJD wrote:

 

I guess where I get lost in this is the "a bolt rifle is more inherently accurate".

 

 

Okay, I suppose I should emphisis that the question I was asking was  what more do you expects from a basic out of the box commercial AR?  Or even a standard service issue rifle for that matter.  Again I'm not talking custom or accurized rifles here, apples to apples.

JJD
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Accuracy

I am more than happy to state that the vast majority of out of the box bolt rifles are built to a higher standard than the out of the box AR platform rifle. This is due for the most part, to the fact that building semiautos have a lot more parts and are more expensive to build. The other part of the equation is that highly accurate AR rifles need to be handled with care, sacrificing a pretty fair amount of reliablilty. It's why the military snipers still use the Rem 700 platform for their mid range weapon of choice. You can purchase an out of the box, accurate AR Rifle (not special order), but not off every gun stores shelf. You will pay considerably more $$ for it and you will not be able to drag it through the blood & the mud & the beer.

the sum = the accuracy is available but at a higher price and decreased reliability in tough conditions.

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Newer ARs

I was just taking to a friend of mine at work and he had just purchased an AR about a month ago.  He actually bought it back in February, but only recieved it a couple months ago.  He was telling me today how disappointed he was with it in terms of accuracy and reliability.  More so in the reliability of his new gun.  He's tried a mix mash of various magazines and various ammo with no success.  He has some previous experience firing srevice issue M16s when he was in the Air Force after the first Gulf War.  He said he never had any reliability issues with those service rifles. 

I was watching some show on Outdoor channel that's been airing lately trying to hot-rod the AR into the hunting world. This week hosts Dick Metcalf and his younger protege were talking up the AR platform again.  Metcalf at some point in the show made the bold (but incorrect) statement that it has always been that civilains hunting rifles have always been adopted from service military rifles for as long as we have been a country.  Wrong!!  If you look at the vast majority of common civilian hunting rifles from the period bewteen about late 1800's until the time servicemen returned from WWII you'll find that the most common type hunting rifles used at that time were Lever action rifles.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the US Army shun lever action rifles in favor of single shot rifles and later bolt action rifles???

In fact the bolt action hunting rifle really didn't become widely adopted by the average joe civilian sportsman until about the time we entered WWII.  Despite good bolt guns being widely available before then and widley publicised/used by famous hunters like Teddy Roosevelt, bolt rifles really only caught just before the middle of the 20th century when you think about it.  But the AR is here to stay, until something better comes along.  So have at em and enjoy shooting them.

JJD
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Maybe.

There was a fairly strong market for bolt guns in the late 1920's, then came the 1930's when no one had any $$.  People used what they had, dad's lever gun.  The 1940's, the WWII years, all production went to mass producing goods of war.  First few years of the 1950"s saw the same issue, though not to the degree of the 1940's.

There were some mitigating circumstances involved in the slower acceptance of the bolt gun.

I believe Metcalf to be correct unless he stated that it always happens overnight.

IMHO, the military has not made stellar choices.  The Early 16's were crap, the M1 carbine, now there was a dandy, the ballistic equal to David's sligshot. 

Too much politics in what is adopted by our military and that ain't new.

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Another pipe in from a Bolt action Fan that has been to the dark side and having fun with the new toy, I did carry on for many years in the service. When I retired, I added to the safe with several bolt guns, the had the chance to have a Desert Ordnance AR platform, not sure if I paid too much, but I don’t care. I have the weapon set up to hunt coyotes and play around out to 400 yards (if I do my part) Monday past after returning for a trip (another story that will be posted) took it out and played with it, steel plates to 400yds off bipods in the prone position, feeding 68gr pills traveling just over 2900, 100yds is a chip shot, 200 still having fun, no work at all, 300yds ok have to do the basics and shoot, 400 I have to do my part and watch the wind down range. At 400 yds shooting a steel target (Bell shape) 10” tall  8 “ at widest point, running about 75% center hits, I know side rings do count, over all 85-90% hits.

 

Spend the money for the gun that you want, if you want accuracy 20” heavy barrel (or longer) if you want an entry gun 16” M-4 style. You will get what you put into the gun. Biggest thing people don’t look at is “Twist rate” mine will not shoot 55, will make do with 60’s loves 68, ok with 75’s. you will get out what you put into the effort.

There is No Free Lunch, pay the price enjoy the meal!

 

 

 

 

V/R

 

M. Bird

 

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