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expatriate's picture
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Airline Attack

I've been thinking about the failed airliner attack, and realizing that it's a strong argument in favor of the 2nd Amendment.

All of the intelligence, all of the security measures...and at the end of the day it was a fellow passenger on the scene that said, "not on my watch" and stopped the attack.

Now they're talking full-body scanners, so TSA can see through your clothes. I can see this generating discussion where people say "enough." At some point, people need to realize that the last line of defense against aggression is each other. Any soldier knows this. A guy on a plane willing to die for his cause has much less chance of success if he's surrounded by passengers willing to die for theirs. Ultimately, when the enemy has presented himself, it's not up to law enforcement somewhere in the distance -- it's up to us, right now, facing the concept of physical confrontation to save our lives and the lives of those around us.

It's time we shake off the cobwebs and reclaim the concepts of individual responsibility, personal liberty, and the idea that we have common interests and that we have each others backs. The Second Amendment spells it out: real security ultimately resides in the individual, not government.

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Re: Airline Attack

Expatiate you could not have said it better. I can only pray that more people open there eyes as we enter the new year . To you and yours I hope you have a blessed new year . It is going to be an intresting one I'm sure . Tony

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Re: Airline Attack

While I agree with 2nd amendment issues and rights, I have mixed feelings about airline passengers being armed. Air Marshals and hostage rescue personnel spend a lot of time training how to use firearms in an airplane without bringing the plane down or killing hostages and even then it's quite tricky. Having what would amount to armed amateurs trying it could prove as horrific as a terrorist attack. On the other side of that coin you could ask how many planes would have run into buildings on 911 had a few passengers or crew members been in possession of arms? It's a difficult question and there are no black or white answers except to say something must be done.

expatriate's picture
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Re: Airline Attack

I wasn't so much thinking about arming passengers as I was about people waking up to the idea that there's a place in society for individual initiative -- not just in airliners, but everywhere. If a government can convince individuals to surrender their right to protect their own lives from physical harm, it can convince them to give up anything.

But as far as airlines go, here's something to think about. I've had intimate details of my life thoroughly investigated for a security clearance, entrusted with some of the most sensitive classified material you can imagine, and am trusted to carry a firearm and put my life on the line to dispense violence to our enemies abroad. I'm trained to use deadly force, and I'm also intimately familiar with aircraft design ...and yet I'm not trusted with a weapon on an airplane any more than anybody else.

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Re: Airline Attack

The one thing that could be added is the first thing that Hitler did in Germany before his attempt to take over the world was to disarm the citezens. If you dont think this administration is not aware of this and worried about a civilian uprising you have to get your head out of the sand. Thumbs up

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Re: Airline Attack

I support teachers right to carry in classrooms to prevent homicidal students. Similarly, I like the idea of qualified citizens being able to carry on planes. This brings in some other issues.

1.) Certification. Would be nice if this was tied into a national right to carry and certification process. Otherwise how would you carry on a flight into a non-reciprocating state?

2.) Frangible ammo and cartridge constraints.

3.) It would be nice to see the airlines promote this with, reduced screening. No full body and express clearance. Some airlines could highlight the fact that they allow carry for licensed individuals and call the service "Freedom Flights". lol

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Re: Airline Attack

Thats not a half bad idea Bitmahser. I think the biggest problem with this or any self defense issue is, (as expat pointed out) one of complacency, not that of hardware. Most people are, as Jeff Cooper put it so well, "sheeple". They are completely convinced that the Government is here to care for them and protect them and to do so for yourself is unthinkable. Additionaly, just having guns in an airliner, let alone shooting inside one, is tricky at best. Tragic at worst. This is one area I would agree is best left to those trained to do it. Maybe we need a sky marshal on every flight.

expatriate's picture
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Re: Airline Attack

The problem with RTC certification is the cost is too high.

Sure, it sounds great -- which is why it's so dangerous. Establishing such a program requires the American people to accept government regulation of firearm use. Once the law is on the books and the precedent is set, it's easy to amend the law to add to the list of disqualifiers.

How do you know the person isn't mentally unsound? Maybe we should require applicants to grant government access to their medical records. Then there's the potential for background checks and associated abuse. What if you're "associated" with someone deemed dangerous?

Aside from privacy issues, there are financial ones as well. How much do you charge for the permit? Maybe we should require applicants to maintain $1 million in liability insurance? How about requiring a $500 safety course?

Sure, you say.. You don't have to get a permit unless you want to carry. But what happens when these ideas get accepted and start bleeding over into simple ownership?

Bottom line is it's a huge minefield. Perhaps the most disturbing one is when people quote "common sense" and say it doesn't affect anyone who isn't a threat to society. History is full of examples where governments stole liberty be slowly expanding the definition of "dangerous."

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Re: Airline Attack

Expat,
Again we have an issue where I have mixed fellings. There are two sides to this coin. We can have government control, which in itself has much potential for abuse. Or we have no control which has potential for tragedy. We need standards, but who sets and maintains them? What criterion do we use,If any? Fees? Training? Testing? Background checks? All can be costly and be potentialy abused by those in charge. I think the bottom line is, excersising the bill of rights and constitution shouldn't require someone elses approval. While I understand people carrying guns can create problems it can't be regulated anymore than telling someone what they can read or write. Yes it allows the ignorant and careless to run rampant but that is what it is.
The price of freedom isn't just paid by soldiers in distant lands. Sometimes it's paid at home. It must be so and we must be as vigilant here as we are abroad. Maybe more so as the greatest current threats to our freedom are not from without, but from within. I don't know what the answer is to this dificult question, but like most good answers it probably doesnt lie in government.

expatriate's picture
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Re: Airline Attack

Benjamin Franklin said those who would give up a little freedom for a little security deserve neither. We're spending way too much effort growing government in the vain hope that by doing so the bad stories on the news will go away. We should know by now that know matter how many liberties you shovel into that hole, it will never be filled. The world is a chaotic, sometimes brutal place. You can't legislate yourself into Utopia, but you can legislate yourself into slavery.

Franklin also said that the Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness; you have to catch it yourself. People seem to have forgotten that one, too.

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Re: Airline Attack

Expatriate wrote,

Quote:
You can't legislate yourself into Utopia, but you can legislate yourself into slavery.

This should be made into a sign and hung over the entrance to the house and senate much like the CIA has "The truth shall set you free" over theirs.

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