334 replies [Last post]
Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Some guys in 12ga like to use

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases

but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than

plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.

And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,

But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits 

those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.


So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length 

backbore job,  of .850" bore or bigger you could use

the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.

Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case

and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.


Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length

backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads

under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.

The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr, 

and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum 

pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short

case can hold. 


It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.

These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than

others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns

to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual

12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to 

minimum specs so cases don't over expand. 

In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,

and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED







Here is the ytube URL again for our guy

shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a

pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.



Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
For the 24ga FH work, we

For the 24ga FH work, we doing one in a 3.5" auto, able to switch barrel with 12ga barrel.Ed

Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Here is good simple system

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop the skirts from deforming, I found that dense dow foam works good, I was using glue gun but dow foam is easier, Just cut plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make a tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam.... Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug.




How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI 24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed. The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases, drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made. And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage, even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .



Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5" model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for slightly longer stroke.Ed



Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Here is picture of 24ga

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals. Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded to match 577NE power[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/24galoads.jpg[/IMG]


Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.




Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia. It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums. Built by his smith who has a reamer. Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels, Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed





Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Finally got back to

Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible... We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.


Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds 458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib, fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give good resistance for good ignition.


Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585 will go about mach 4.


Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed


Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
First AUS buffalo killed by

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.


If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide


next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed






I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise,  figuring out an

extractor is a  problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga

one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger

than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one

on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed




Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Here is picture of 100 cases

Here is picture of 100 cases  loaded with CEB solid nose bullets

and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat

or wide hollowpoint. .







Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,

and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve

sealing under what are heavier loads.  The balls are .600" and

315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.






Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro

Express rimmed case,  that many big game hunters like, usually

set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga

size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati  with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid

shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses

off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,

 to our 585HE the strongest yet.


The 577NE is an offshoot of  24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went

eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short 

cases and black powder,  cases built like shotgun cases, called the 

577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder, 

then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"

and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet

of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet

diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns

and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed

and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider 

was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all

over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.


Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a

24ga FH, a  slight regression to earlier times, by  taking 577NE brass, and

reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And

stamp the caseheads 24 ga. 


For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing 

the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions,  and finding

reasonable price  rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.

The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are 

about a third the cost of  600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.

We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,

with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.


Info about the power in  types of guns  normally set up with 24ga FH,

break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug 

goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.

Now  using the better, heavier 3"  brass we got, we can increase speed

to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles 

energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel

gun, gets us  near  2  1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the

actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.

So makes  relatively smaller bore  shotgun, 24ga,  with  458WIN power.

.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.


Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga

and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed


Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Guys asking about using 585

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super

sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple

middle bands on the CEB  and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,

which uses .575"  slugs.  Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the

sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a 

special made hollowed out long roll crimper.





Getting some more interest in our 585HE.

An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm 

PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places  14.5

cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases 

being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes

like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.


And  a PTRD with almost a  5 foot long barrel could  get 650gr

spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using

3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps.  Or get a 900gr at 2800.

Great possibilities for fun shooting. For  tactical use in a place

where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where

steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.



I  like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the

actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .

Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by

cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on 

inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like 

Ruger 77 handle, the one on  the right . Something even a novice

like me can do.....




A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr

ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint  can range in weight 450gr 

to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back.. 

The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,

for  shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,

and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed





Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
For lightweight plinking,

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about mach 4 with a top load..



Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long. It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a bunch of them and so does McGowen.


 Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH. It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would work in our 12ga sabot.. 


But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE. Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.


Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a way to keep them together group wise.Ed 

Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Here is picture of our NEF

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the 

recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt.



Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga  dangerous

game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.




There is  couple 585 videos  on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;

Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1,  that was done in Australia.It was  set up

for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the

first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can

go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..





Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the

style of a CZ stock and metal will be  finished with a Gun Kote finish.





Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a

singleshot test gun.  We used a composite stock we

adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.

 Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.




And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is

just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire

forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED


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