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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 300
What causes sabot

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.

First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot

bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting

barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.

 

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/28badwad.jpg[/IMG]

 

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/16badwad.jpg[/IMG]

 

And more important item that can cause  lack of accuracy is if 

base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real

tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.

On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand

which tapers a bit. Easy to see.

 

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/badtaper.jpg[/IMG]

 

Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball 

flattened, put in the bottom and  400gr Minie above, two different

styles of Minies.

 

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/ballslugsab.jpg[/IMG]

 

Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize

12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use

for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about 

where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.

They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

 

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/16gasabots.jpg[/IMG] 

 

 

 

Offline
Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 300
Here is 16ga discarding

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs.. 20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/16sabotother.jpg[/IMG]

Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/12goodbad.jpg[/IMG]

Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr, but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabextreme.jpg[/IMG]

Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing 145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabdefense.jpg[/IMG]

Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots. Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/puny.jpg[/IMG]

Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread, to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second. TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

Offline
Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 300
We have moved few thousand

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here. Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gatube.jpg[/IMG]

A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585 with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/585ceb.jpg[/IMG]

Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed. Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier

1500------5

1600------5.7

1700------6.42

1800------7.2

1900------8

2000------9

2100------9.8

2200------10.75

2300------11.75

2400------12.8

2500------13.9

2600------15

2700------16.2

2800------17.4

2900------18.7

3000------20

Offline
Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 300
Here is picture of current

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that you can get molds for from Lyman, Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter, the best size for the 12ga sabot.

 

 

A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

 

 

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/585delivery.jpg[/IMG]

 

Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded, 650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

Offline
Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 300
One of our sabot testers with

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759. It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy. My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759. Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves. Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here. He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns, and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if problems occur go to 4759. What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The 4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the good rifling marks impressed into our sabots. I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components. Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

 

 

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/585plain.jpg[/IMG]

Offline
Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 300
Here is picture of our 12ga

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like the faster powder did for him.

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/landmarks.jpg[/IMG] ..

 

Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet. The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp 180 degree crimp down on top of it.

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/topedge.jpg[/IMG]

 

We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case 1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana. Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder. Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps. The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture, single shots and checking couple lever actions. Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/585hi.jpg[/IMG]

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/mt585hi.jpg[/IMG]

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/g585hi.jpg[/IMG]

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 300
In above post we compare the

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots .Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies and sometimes you have to use different wads..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/comparemrmc.jpg

 

In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with 12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between seal and sabot. Thee white felt ones from BPI. They compress down evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/whitefelt.jpg[/IMG]

 

You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass. The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted, straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big run of cases made in a factory.

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/belting.jpg[/IMG]

 

Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds. Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt. The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 300
Here is picture of the group

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun powder but made it much smaller using much more of the slower 4759.

There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get them or don't cast their own....... Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch our 585 cases imported for sales there

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case.

Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal, 60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet. Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600. Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit inside the hollowbase of the bullet....Ed

 

 

Offline
Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 300
neat

neat

Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.

Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our

12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use

577 NE bullets also.

 

For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5" 

Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use

577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper 

than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style

forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.

Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,

and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.

You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

 
Offline
Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 300
Here is picture of 24ga FH in

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size. Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone, so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE 3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to 540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE. And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and cheaper if you cast your own. like 20 cents each

 

 

 [IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/mossy24.jpg[/IMG]

 

Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels. Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks. Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks... In back some of the cases and die sets.

 

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/allhebbl.jpg[/IMG]

 

Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels, 1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more on Enfields and others through the winter. Ed

 

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/enhobbk.jpg[/IMG]

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