334 replies [Last post]
Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Little work on non-discarding

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW

wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.

We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just 

shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.

Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..

 We also shrunk the skirt  of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it

in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman

12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a

SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make

 bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.





I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE

case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one

on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed

the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the

unneeded front of the sear and  metal above it in the bottom, giving

room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded  length.





Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs  in singleshots are going

to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets  and use black powder 

and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,

Used 54cal,  60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,

and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.

As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga

card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.

There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can

stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.


Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that 

was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together.




Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.

It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers

like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. .

 It is made the same way as RE-17  as far as how  the rate of burn 

deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter 

cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super 

heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging

peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in

BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".

And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed 



Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Last picture above shows what

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to 

be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller 

45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.

This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.


More info on the SPW sabots with  520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into 

them. With  3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500

they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same

combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on 

right is factory SPW.



Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590"  in this

12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of

Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.

That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of  epoxy holds the Minie slug

in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly

short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.

Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.




Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585

barrel.  This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the

back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed




As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up

24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use

reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load

say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card

and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about

airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you

can put in a card over the powder and about  3/4 oz of shot and have a real

speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put  card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
First picture is of nice

First picture is of nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead roundball with section of copper tube, with wads inside, bpgs seal on the bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.


Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4 ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga. Just glue top card in.Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going over 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.


Next is a Mossy 390 with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun, and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed


Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Here is picture of the 12ga

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in

the 1887 WIN shown above. They are  2  5/8" long cases and we 

get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed

these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length

as 3' plastic crimped little long.





Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall

10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit

VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.





Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball  slug shown above.

Use  tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in

a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used

in wads as opposed to fullbore.





Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE

cases. Got the idea  from Bret In Minn that  could setup 585HE 

guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to

make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire

in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about

4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.

And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed

for 6000 ft lbs.  And one that long would have proportions like the

newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts,  that it could be

possibly be done,  using long 2400gr in smooth barrel. 

Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.





Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock  and light

barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.

Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels.  650gr at 2500 is max of 

what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load

.Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the 

Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get

 85% we only need  2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi 

instead of  65,000...Ed






Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
We have a winner it seems.

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.





The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier  this week. And we got a bunch 

of testing already for opening and sealing,  and some accuracy testing .440gr 

Minie bullet, measuring .575";  with OD of sabot with slug in it of  .737"  It is 

perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all 

stayed  on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower

 powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.

Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with  slower powders expanded

only a little, and those cases are soft ones.

We have big bunch of the sabots here now.






All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.

With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting. 

Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling.  Most of the rifling grip is on the

bottom half of sabot, which is why these and  Accutips are best as the bottom

is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many

other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..





The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did  not cut into the inside of the 

sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.

Good Accuracy - In the cold and  very windy day,  hit milk jugs at 30 yds.

Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under

slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the

curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...


You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),

that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.

It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying  to get twice as many 

shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups, 

miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.


Get with me for sabots --   gunowner at journey.com   Ph-   1-989-644-5228

THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.

Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included,  or $20 for 50 postage included,

with a bonus  WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order,  5 with 50 order.

to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed





Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Here is picture of a bunch of

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots  with different slugs and bullets.

Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long  700 gr -- a blunt

solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.

2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft

1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie

Gunworks--  400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale

on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.

Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574    " to .577" Minies.

If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two

hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585"  440gr

and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.




Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture  with

white felt wad just fits  in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.

I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759  I'd use is Alliant Steel in 

smaller amounts,   50gr Steel, in 3", and  thicker wads and cushions like shown. 

To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.

You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.






After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the

sabot holds slugs  tight back into the base. Speeds over  2000 fps

will  be  gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .

More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights. 

Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.


As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),

that get to peak pressure slower, thus can  use larger amounts, can get to higher

 velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much. 


 For most of you in 2.75" and  3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75"  start at  40gr and go up to about 50. 

For 3" start at 45gr  go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load  much easier

for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.

Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences

and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems. 


In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"

I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using

480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks

and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them.  Get ones .574" to  .577"



Interested in sabots---      gunowner at journey.com         Ph-   1-989-644-5228

THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.

Ours are 33 bucks per 100  postage included.

Or $20 for 50 postage included..

.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus  

WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order,  5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.

to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..

We want you to help test and find what is best....Ed

Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Here is picture of 45-50yd

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped  NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr 

58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.






Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to

get them and get loads working. 





A little levity in this process.Ed





Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
Some more info about our

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......

First and most important is our sabots fitting  real tight like the Accutip

Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as

the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel

headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal 

slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,

But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum

cushion wads.


The 440gr Minie slug of .575"  in the 3" cases is the one I used as a

base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of

Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF.  Using  3" soft base cases.

Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left 

fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.



For 440gr max of  55gr Steel

For 400gr max of  57gr  Steel

For 360gr max of  59gr  Steel


For 490gr max of 52gr  Steel.

For 510gr max of 49gr  Steel

For 540gr max of  47gr  Steel.


I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a 

bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.

Many of you need to get in on the fun.

Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is 

perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.





Earler I showed the  585HE  Falling block with pistol grip and the light

barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added  2 extra 

springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made

for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on

the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock

for Ruger 77 in 585HE.





And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so

in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next

to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.

Will be one of only  2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..







Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
The sabots aren't moving fast

The sabots aren't moving fast at all and I got to
money back out of them right way, and seeing as how
we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,
and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and
set up so they can be selling the sabots, so we will try
selling them fast a few weeks longer. So to get these
moving out and getting tested and we pay our bills,we will
be having sale on just  the sabots, in larger amounts only.
We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
the guys can see what we have found that works.

Because of the shipping costs and boxes that  2, 3, or 4 bags
of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,
we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
So,  200 sabots $47 Shipping included,  
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.

Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68
plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
years all over the internet that bought undersize junk,
that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
from most of them, So  guys see if you got time, please
help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed

Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 334
The sabots work in brass

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,

next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder 

as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture.. 

Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and

the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the

top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.





Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases

at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case

mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling

impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel

straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that

we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.





Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots  that

 will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.





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