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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 294
Another 12ga sabot idea,

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug, with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels. This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup seal, and forced it on for a locked fit.. Slug is .629" diameter.

 

Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.

 

 

Here is older picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores. Man what nice old guns.

 

Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

 

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 294
Some more 12ga sabot work.

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are like ones we want to get made for reloading. They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug. I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds. Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel. The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.

 

 

Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion. All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show and magnify difference between the two wad setups.. What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy. That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them. Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason. The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.

 

 

Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.

 

 

Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110) around the net. We are very happy with the response and help we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting, reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views. All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views. And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000, third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 294
Some possibilities with the

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We  are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast slug in, they are like Federal Fusion Sabot.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell.I think it is possible to reload with
a simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.

Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic  nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.

 

Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.

 

Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed

 

 

 

 

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 294
The sabots we are working

The sabots we are working with, take at least 15 different 58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of sabot at .733" with all of them in. There are 5 Dixie Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of. Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses. Examples-58cal (.575"- .578") Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights. Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc. And they are all good slugs at a saving especially when folks cast their own. I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.

 

From the research on sabot patents and testing by various of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper, they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second, one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas. Behind are Lyman and Lee 58cal molds. Got more coming of different 58cal weights, clear down to 315gr. My casting friend will get them and as soon a we get somebody making the sabot, he can aid the cause by making slugs. Some of the Lyman and Lee slugs are more streamlined than modst big bore rifle bullets as you can see in picture.

 

Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup, an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it, to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have setup on NEFs, and CBCs.

 

 

 

 

Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock, and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid. Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the extra weight.

 

 [IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/450greener.jpg[/IMG]

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 294
Here are a couple high speed,

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well and even these sabots we want to get made, open up. The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy. The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening. We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some due the economy.

 Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action. Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on. And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.

 

4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones. It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern 20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

 

 

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 294
Some info we have found out

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots. In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as straight as possible for accuracy. Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.

 

 

 

Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.

 

Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the "Lethal" and the "destructor".

 

Fifth picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore. Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

 

 

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 294
I think we found good overall

I think we found good overall sabot design that will be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple. It is same simple design as the ones pictured above but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact for more room for our slow powder loads, and when using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges of slower powder, better velocity with less case expansion, and more reloads possible. We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots for penetration until now.. They did very well, two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried timber, pushing out some wood on the back. Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF. Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game. Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier, and cast harder for any need.And compared to other way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs compared to short fullbore ones.... Here are pictures of molds that can make cast 58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working on.There are many makers and brands and styles of molds and weights available.

 

 

Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel. The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.

 

 

 

Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has. Great looking gun..Ed

 

 

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 294
Working more with 58cal lead

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.

 

Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.

 

In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with  bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..

 

Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE  Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5  12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 294
Some 12ga sabot progress.

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they  get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.

 

Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.

 

Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.

 

On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

 

 

 

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Location: Brinton, MI
Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 294
Back after losing time to a

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer. Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads. The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in 36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little. Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds. This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels. For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore.. Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also. I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads. Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would allow it to tip or go off center.

Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and 700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to 50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.

Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

[IMG]http://www.gunownerstv.com/sav585.jpg[/IMG]

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