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SoCoKHntr's picture
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ndemiter

ndemiter wrote:

why not? it's a caliber that has killed most of the animals on this planet. keep in mind that the single guy who's probably killed more elephant than anyone else who has EVER lived did it with a 7x57. and for the time, it was a 175 grain bullet at 2400 fps, as modern as the could get. you can load a 125 grain bullet at 2900 fps and do just as good or better.

25-06 will not give you the assurance of excessive damage if you have a poor hit, but if you hit what you want to hit, it's over kill. If you hit the chest of the animal, it is more than enough to do the job.

</p To me it boils down to weight equaling penetration, the heavier the bullet the better penetration one gets bottom line. With the smaller cals., yes they'LLC kill elk all day if one like all have stated is selective and ensures broadside shots behind the shoulder much like a selective shot by a bow hunter. What if you were hunting a big animal that can bite back like a grizzly? Sure in cases a 243 or 25-06 will kill one but would you trust your life on it? Thousands have been killed with 30-30's and less but todays. Choices would one not pick a more appropriate hard hitting deep penetrating caliber? I know I dang sure would. 24 or 25 Cal cartridges just are not giving bullet weights ideal for penetration on all shots which might be encountered. Would I use it if all that I had? Yes but has been stated I'd be very selective in broadside shots avoiding big bones.

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penetration

there is no direct correlation between penetration and bullet weight. lots of factors influence penetration. mostly bullet construction, but velocity plays a major role.

in lots of cases, heavier bullet weights result in more kinetic energy down range. BUT, there 's a trade off. at a certain point, the bullet becomes too heavy to utilize the amount of powder you can fit into the shell. there is a very complicated way to figure this out. (it's a calculus optimization problem with 5 major variables) through lots of graphing, you can figure out what bullet weight you should use for your gun... or take the major ammo companies word for it, because they all figured it out years ago... you should really just look it up in a reloading manual.

I'm not saying the 25-06 is the best caliber of choice, but i wouldn't hesitate to kill a big bull with my 243, i just would have to limit myself to only the best shot opportunities.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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I agree

ndemiter wrote:

there is no direct correlation between penetration and bullet weight. lots of factors influence penetration. mostly bullet construction, but velocity plays a major role.

in lots of cases, heavier bullet weights result in more kinetic energy down range. BUT, there 's a trade off. at a certain point, the bullet becomes too heavy to utilize the amount of powder you can fit into the shell. there is a very complicated way to figure this out. (it's a calculus optimization problem with 5 major variables) through lots of graphing, you can figure out what bullet weight you should use for your gun... or take the major ammo companies word for it, because they all figured it out years ago... you should really just look it up in a reloading manual.

I'm not saying the 25-06 is the best caliber of choice, but i wouldn't hesitate to kill a big bull with my 243, i just would have to limit myself to only the best shot opportunities.

</p While I agree there is more then one factor determining penetration, I'll disagree and say that bullet weight is a pretty important factor. Check out this link from the Nosler website specifically on bullet weight. http://www.nosler.com/articles/2011/05/05/cartridge-components-part-iv-b...

I, due to not being ready with another rifle hunted last year with my 243 when I killed my eastern plains bull. I didn't feel real confident truth be told toting that as I've learned a variety of shots can be expected from close to long and any angle. When we called my bull in we spotted him at around 600 yards and I thought 'oh crap I'm in trouble with this 243'. My bud said here use my 270 which was loaded with 150 gr bullets which I had shot as well before our hunt and knew where it was hitting. When the bull popped up at about 130 yds straight on facing us I hit him in the chest, missed one, then hit him again in the shoulder as he turned. Both shots that hit penetrated well and killed him. I don't know if the 100 gr 6mm bullets would have. He dropped within 30 yards of where he was hit in nasty rugged canyon country. Again I don't know how far he could of gone with that 243.

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in europe

ndemiter wrote:

why not? it's a caliber that has killed most of the animals on this planet. keep in mind that the single guy who's probably killed more elephant than anyone else who has EVER lived did it with a 7x57. and for the time, it was a 175 grain bullet at 2400 fps, as modern as the could get. you can load a 125 grain bullet at 2900 fps and do just as good or better.

25-06 will not give you the assurance of excessive damage if you have a poor hit, but if you hit what you want to hit, it's over kill. If you hit the chest of the animal, it is more than enough to do the job.

Yeah, also keep in mind that in northern Europe it's quite common for hunters to take moose and reindeer with a 6.5x55 Swed Muser, and 7x57mm Mauser as well. They do it all the time and have done so for decades.

I think the opinion that larger calibers give you more options is a valid point and perhaps that's why so many biggame hunters here like the larger 30+ caliber cartridges.

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The Swede shoots a 140gr

The Swede shoots up to a 160gr bullet, and I hear their moose are smaller than our elk.

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europe

Still Hunter wrote:

The Swede shoots up to a 160gr bullet, and I hear their moose are smaller than our elk.

Moose may generally be referred to in Europe as smaller than ours here in N America, but they're not all that much smaller.  The size numbers I've read still paint a picture of an animal standing roughly 6 ft at the shoulders weighing 900 lbs to 1100 lbs, that's a bit larger than most average Rocky Mountain Elk here in the west.  In fact Moose are known as and called Elk in Europe. 

If those 6.5MM cartriges can down those European Moose, what makes anyone think that those cartridges can't cleanly take an average Rocky Mountain elk here.  Their reindeer in Europe are generally the same sizes as our caribu up in Alaska.  European Stags generally are about the size of our elk or rival the sizes of some of our larger mules deer. As was said before, those larger 30+ caliber magnums give you more options, but I'm a firm believer that you still have to make selective shots regardless of how big a gun you use.

I think we like bigger because we're Americans.  It's just who we are.  We tend to over-do it with a lot of stuff.  Bigger houses than we need, bigger cars, bigger food portions, larger bottle sizes, etc.  I'm guilty of that too.  I drive a bigger pick-up truck than I probably need for hunting. :lol:  But it is very true that bigger gives you more options and I've come to appreciate having broader options sometimes too.

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I believe that weight plays a

I believe that weight plays a much bigger part in penetration than some think. Velocity also plays a huge part. But if the bullet is not properly built for the velocity, then the bullet sheds to much weight to fast and penetration is limited. That made a lot if these newer premium bullet's shine, they didn't lose eight reguardless of velocity. So then for penetration about all thats needed is enough velocity to drive the bullet thru.

Velocity has been played up to the point that some people use very poor bullets for their cartridge on game. The secret is of course, to get the bullet into something vital and destroy it. That can be done with some pretty small cartridges and light bullet's. Bullets not even remotely designed for game. Every year a lot of people take game with to light bullets in to small a cartridge. Some of them are very selective about how they place their shot and have a great deal of success. If a 22 Hornet were legal for elk and it was all I had, dead elk! It's in the bullet and how you use it.

There are a lot of shots that must be passed on when using these lighter bullet's and smaller cartridges. As has been mentioned already, A shot thru the shoulder of an elk gives lots of resistence to the bullet. At close range with a TSX or soild bullet and enough velocity, even a 17 can kill elk. P.O. Ackley wrote about the solid copper bullet's he turned by hand and how they killed way beyond their capability. I suspect the people that used them were very careful with where they placed the shots. Take a 338 Win Mag and a 243 Win. 250gr bullet in the 338 and 100 gr bullet in the 243. Only shot you have is thru a shoulder, do you take it? Depends on if your using the 243 or the 338. 338's 250gr bullet will likely shoot right on thru and into the vitals. The design of the bullet makes the bullet maintain more weight on leaving the elk that the 243 has entering. Not enough momentum in the 100gr bullet. Then if you wait and task a good head or neck shot, the 243 might have the advantage with some in that it's more user friendly, less recoil. But either with a well placed bullet will do the job.

I think John Nosler may have given to many people to much confidence. The rear part of the bullet stays together as a solid plug most the time but it is also designed to shed 30% nof it's weight. So If you decide your gonna use a partition in your 243 or 25-06, you may well be kidding yourself that the bullet will let you take a tuffer shot. Before using the partition in to small a cartridge I believe it's better to use a good 130gr bullet or heavier in a cartridge that will shoot it at around 3000fps or less. Years ago testing of bullet wounds was done at Edgewood Arsenal. One of the things they found was that at some point, velocity reduced penetration. Now if that happenes with a FMJ bullet that retains 100% of it's weight, what happens to the bullet that sheds weight?

My thought on an elk cartridge is that it should be a cartridge using a middle weight or heavier bullet. In the 25, the 100gr doesn't even come close to that but it will certainly do with the right shot. I think elk cartridge's start at the 6.5 due to the better selection of bullet's designed for big game. And I think everyone would agree that a guy that is afraid of his 338 mag will be much better off with a 308 and 165gr bullet