Well fellas,

I lost 2 deer, but I have killed a few others. As far as a bow shot....I didnt say I didnt see the arrow. I shoot yellow and white vanes with chartruse nocks. Very effective at dusk and dawn. I saw the arrow go through the chest broadside and with muzzy's, the snapping of ribs is a distinct sound.

The muzzleloader was a different story...i saw a running deer through a cloud of white smoke, something i hope is not typical. That was my first muzzleloader hunt. The animal was at 30 yards in my scope and I shot him high on the point of the shoulder. I should have taken a neck shot.

If I was banging away at 300 yards with a .308, I would be far less certain of my shot placements. I take the blame, but I also blame the gators...if it wasnt for them, i would be neck deep in the muck looking for my deer.

K hang on a sec coop. If you hit it high you may have hit whats called "no mans land" the small area just above the lungs and just below the spine. It would be very uncommon to hit here with a .50 cal and not kill it. But with a bow It happens ALOT. At 30 yards your smokepole may have hit a little higher than you think. I dont know how you have it sighted in so its hard to say. As far as my comment for Bow that was all in general, not directed at you. But its a LOT more common with a bow shot to hit that area. Seen many deer with wounds that, from the outside, made me wonder how they lived. But once inside I could see they just got hit at that wierd angle and got lucky.

IMO, and having seen hundreds of animals shot with a 223 and a 243, a 223 does more damge and has more "shock" than a 243.

I've killed several Pa with a .223 using 55 gr bullets. Shoot them behind the ear and they'll just drop. the question is Can your daughter be counted on to place that little bullet where it needs to go?
In Pa a 22 Hornet is legal and has been used for many many years on whitetails.That's all my father ever used and never lost a deer...but the man could shoot and knew enough to pick his shots or pass them up...do you OR your daughter have the disipline to do that?

I dont think I want to depend on my daughter having to hit behind the ear every shot. She is pretty disciplined, but she is also 12. I was looking this weekend at a 7mm-08. Guy at the gun shop said it kicked about the same as a .243. It is a little bigger and seems like a gun she could use for a long time and kind of grow into. I think I may go with it. I am taking her this weekend to let her pick one out. It will either be a .243 or 7mm-08. Whichever she feels more comfortable with. I will try and nudge a little for the 7mm-08, but it will be her decision.

Granny, the 7MM-08 is certainly a fine deer cartridge and could be used throughout a person lifetime. If you buy the Remington 140 grain Managed Recoil ammunition the recoil will be about the same as a .243 with a deer load. Otherwise with regular ammunition, on paper, the recoil of the 7mm-08 is about 40-50% more than the .243.

Good luck with which ever you choose.

There is a world of difference between "on paper" and "felt" recoil. Much depends on the rifle itself and not the cartrige. My 7mm.08 TC Pro hunter feels like a puppy. That frame and stock even tames the buck from my .300 win mag which if you have ever shot a .300 WM you know that THATS hard to do. As I said in my first post on here, there are just way to many advances in recoil suppression technology to undergun our kids. Its great to promote excellent shooting skills but it would be a simple disgrace to dishearten a child by having them out there with a .223 and they dont make that perfect shot, which would be required from such a small calibre, and dont down their deer. And BTW, the ONLY way a .223 will do more damage on a deer with that light of a bullet is because it blew up! Blow ups are NOT good because you arent penetrating.

Oh Yeah, Ganny, If you reload I have some great workups for you that are great at the range for that 7mm.08. Would be perfect for her to get a lot of practice with and you can increase load gradually while letting her get proficiant with the recoil managment and followthrough. The 7mm.08 has done nothing but impress the heck outta me. Extreamly versetile in loads and weights and one flat out accurate lil wipper snapper!!! Which is why Im going to let my lil one start with that. She'll be 5 in a year and a half so it'll be time to start teching her soon

My own Recommendation for bullet selection for deer in the 7mm.08 is the 139gr SST Hornady. The 145gr Grand Slam Sp Speer does a nasty lil number as well on deer. Speer also has really cheap bullets that you could get for practise. Load it light with a light grain bullet and powder charge and then just work up. You will accomplish 3 things like this #1 Get her used to the "BANG" #2 get her used to recoil #3 Get her loving the fine art of SHOOTING!!!

Cam I seriously doubt that you are 12 years old and only weigh about 70 pounds. You need to consider the person doing the shooting before you start saying the gun kicks like a puppy. With the information you are handing out you could turn the little girl off to hunting for life.

Just for your information I'm 70 years old, 6 ft tall, weigh a little over 200 pounds, and have been hunting for as long as I can remember. I've been reloading for over 40 years and have shot everything from 22 rimfire through 338, hot loaded 45-70s, and 12 gauge Turkey Loads. I think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to recoil. If you want to fire something that has some kick to it try shooting a NEF Tracker II in 12 gauge!

OK killers, lets all calm down.